[RocketsNW] D-day

Sun May 17 11:48:48 PDT 2009

Both Trip Barbour and Ken Good have indicated it is unlikely they filed
electronically at the 11th hour. Ken has stated he has a joint statement in
hand that will be issued as soon as the lawyers confirm nothing was filed. 

Scott T. Bowers
www.scottsrockets.com

-----Original Message-----
From: rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com [mailto:rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com]
On Behalf Of Terry Moore-Read
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 10:10 AM
To: kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com
Cc: rockets at rocketsnw.com
Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] D-day

I checked the Electroic Filing System Yesterday and there's no case listed
at the appeals court in DC.

On May 17, 2009, at 12:51 AM, kmcgoffin at worldaccessnet.com wrote:

> As of now I'm figuring that if ATF had filed an appeal, or any other 
> kind of legal motion, someone would have posted this to some rocketry 
> list and it would be all over the place by now.  So it looks like I 
> was wrong (YIPPEE!  YEEHAW!) and it's just a matter now of sorting out 
> what the effect will actually be.
>
> But I still urge vigilance wrt to ATF.  There are a lot of things 
> relating to rocketry not specifically exempted by this ruling.  In and 
> of itself it's a narrow victory.
> +McG+
>
>
>> Well, what I have heard is mostly hearsay, but my bet is the ATF 
>> dropped it.
>> There are just too many stories from credible sources saying the ATF 
>> did not intend to appeal. I am betting the manufacturers already have 
>> their new policy written and ready to go.
>>
>>
>> Scott T. Bowers
>> www.scottsrockets.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Terry Moore-Read [mailto:terry at mooreread.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 1:33 PM
>> To: Bill Munds
>> Cc: Scott T. Bowers; rockets at rocketsnw.com
>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] D-day
>>
>> The problem for the Legal Eagles is individual members are not their 
>> clients so they're going to steer clear of giving more than general
>> advice,   their insurers would have a cow otherwise.   I'm sure the
>> manufacturers are consulting their own counsel to figure out a way 
>> forward from here.  We'll probably get a general statement saying the 
>> ATF window of opportunity to appeal has passed.
>>
>> The ATF is only compelled by statute to publish an explosives list 
>> once per year - so we may be waiting until next year if we're looking
>> for some positive action from them.   The judges order removed it  
>> from
>> the current list and the ATF can sit back and let the situation be 
>> ambiguous as long as they don't directly violate the order by 
>> threatening enforcement action.
>>
>> The more I think about an appeal, the more trouble I have figuring 
>> out what they can really appeal.  Not liking the result is not 
>> grounds.
>> They already lost the same argument before the appeals court and 
>> going back there having failed to follow the instructions from last 
>> time
>> would likely not be good for them.    They would also likely have to
>> show a reasonable chance of victory and a risk of substantial harm in 
>> order to obtain an emergency stay from the court.
>>
>> I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.
>>
>> On May 15, 2009, at 9:56 PM, Bill Munds wrote:
>>
>>> Business as usual until we are notified by the legal eagles.
>>> nothing has changed until it's changed.
>>>
>>> We will be requiring permits for pre-order sales and at FITS until 
>>> further notice.
>>> As soon as we find out anything we will be the first to post.
>>>
>>> Dave and Bill @ Puget Sound Propulsion 
>>> http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=EML_WLHM_GreaterGood
>>> http://gfx1.hotmail.com/mail/w3/ltr/i_charity.gif
>>> EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD
>>> Join me
>>>
>>>> From: scott at scottsrockets.com
>>>> To: rockets at rocketsnw.com
>>>> Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 20:25:00 -0700
>>>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] D-day
>>>>
>>>> Well, even if there is no filing I wouldn't start selling AP over 
>>>> the counter until legal gives us guidance. We don't know if they 
>>>> filed, or if not, how we should proceed. The BATFE still has the 
>>>> rocketry faqs up. It has been years, a few days wont kill us.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.atf.gov/explarson/eipb.htm
>>>>
>>>> Scott T. Bowers
>>>> www.scottsrockets.com <http://www.scottsrockets.com/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _____
>>>>
>>>> From: Larry Colvin [mailto:larrycolvin121 at yahoo.com]
>>>> Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 8:06 PM
>>>> To: Scott T Bowers
>>>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] D-day
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why aren't we hearing anything from our organizations? I'm a dealer 
>>>> and I want to sell without atf licensing requirements tomorrow at 
>>>> the OROC launch.
>>>> And because we have had no communication from NAR or Tripoli since 
>>>> March 18th, I can't. So many fliers will be bummed.
>>>>
>>>> I really thought our organizations would give more info as the 
>>>> deadline approached, and then give the go-ahead late today. Does 
>>>> anyone know why they are so mum? Can't even be contacted. It's 11PM 
>>>> Eastern, and all we have is rumors.
>>>>
>>>> Larry Colvin
>>>> Bend, OR
>>>> ATF License holder for Sunriver Nature Center
>>>>
>>>> --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Scott T Bowers <scott at scottsrockets.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Scott T Bowers <scott at scottsrockets.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] D-day
>>>> To: "'Carl Hamilton'" <carl at mousetrap.com>, "'Terry Moore-Read'"
>>>> <terry at mooreread.com>
>>>> Cc: "'NW Rocketry mailing list'" <rockets at rocketsnw.com>
>>>> Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 6:54 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is rumor on another list that the ATF decided to bag it. Very 
>>>> unsubstantiated though.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Scott T. Bowers
>>>> www.scottsrockets.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From:
>>>> <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rockets-bounces@rocke
>>>> ts
>>>> nw.com
>>>>>
>>>> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from 
>>>> "us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be rockets- 
>>>> bounces at rocketsnw.com
>>>> [mailto:
>>>> <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rockets-bounces@rocke
>>>> ts
>>>> nw.com
>>>>>
>>>> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from 
>>>> "us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be 
>>>> rockets-bounces at rocketsnw.com ] On Behalf Of Carl Hamilton
>>>> Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 3:23 PM
>>>> To: Terry Moore-Read
>>>> Cc: NW Rocketry mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [RocketsNW] D-day
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Terry Moore-Read < 
>>>> <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=terry@mooreread.com>
>>>> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from 
>>>> "us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com" claiming to be terry at mooreread.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure whether the drop box can be used to start a new 
>>>>> action or not
>>>>> - either way the motion requesting permission to appeal must be 
>>>>> served on the NAR & Tripoli before it is filed in court.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So, would it be good legal strategy if all NAR and Tripoli 
>>>> representatives were "out of town" right now?
>>>>
>>>> - Carl
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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